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  1. #1
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    I've noticed a lot of my sites appear to be pretty garbled up when it's accessed using ie5/5.5... Anything, else and they all work fine. According to w3schools only about 4% of poeple still use ie5.

    http://www.w3schools.com/browsers/browsers_stats.asp

    So... Do you design/code with ie5 in mind, or is it a lost cause?

    Thanks!

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  3. #2
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    Nope. IE6 is my baseline, if I'm targetting IE (I usually am, though :-))

  4. #3
    Senior Member filburt1's Avatar
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    I ignore it.

    IE WDF browser breakdown for August 2006 (although not truly representative of a general population because designers are more likely to use alternative browsers and AWstats grossly underrepresents some stats, including hits):

    edit: wow, that copied badly. Summary: IE 6, 40.8%, IE 7, 3.8%, all others less than 1%. Overall: IE 45.2% and Firefox 42.2% (!). Other notables: Safari 2.4% and Opera 1.1%. Netscape 4 less than 0.01%...score. Konqueror only slightly higher than NS4.

    I actually like the Opera rendering engine...I just hate the browser that surrounds it.

    Over the months and years, IE and Firefox have been getting closer and closer for WDF. I predict in a few months, Firefox will finally surpass IE...until IE7/Vista comes out. But remember, being a technically knowledgable group, most WDF users are aware of alternatives to IE and many obviously elect to use them.
    filburt1, Web Design Forums.net founder
    Site of the Month contest: submit your site or vote for the winner!

  5. #4
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    I also ignore IE5 - making sites display properly in IE6 is hard enough. Thank God for the html>body hack...!

  6. #5
    Senior Member hyperair's Avatar
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    Normally when I create web sites, making sites work for both IE 6 as well as Firefox is well easy enough. Then there are browsers that you have to put the extra effort to get it to work, such as Opera, Safari, Konqueror, and Netscape Navigator.

    Then, there are lost causes (as you mentioned) such as IE 4, IE 5, and so on. IE 5.5 for Mac is even worse. Whatever works in IE 6.0/Win and Firefox seems to break in IE 5.5/Mac as well as Safari (and people wonder why I hate Macintosh so much).

    But, it all depends on where you lean upon when designing web pages. Do you lean on CSS, or Javascript, or both? I tend to use CSS for my designs, but I hardly ever leave out Javascript in any page I make (it's for extra effects and functionality-I'm all out for Web 2.0, Ajax, web applications, etc). Most of the Javascript done in web pages usually revolves around DOM as well as DHTML. Safari and Konqueror's support for DHTML is somewhere hovering between nil and poor. Opera is still good, I reckon, but there are a few differences with IE6/Win and Firefox.

    Then there's the newest browser in the market, IE 7. If you run a search on Google, you'll probably find numerous complaints about hacks which backfire once they reach IE7, as IE7 has fixed quite a few inconsistencies with CSS. I never encountered those problems though, because I never really relied on hacks much. I kind of got around without them.
    Hyperair

  7. #6
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    I have found that Opera renders pages brilliantly, provided that you use valid XHTML and CSS. In fact, I have found very few differences between Opera and Firefox as they are both great browsers for standards-compliance.

    IE6, however, is very much not standards-compliant, and that is why the ugly business of 'hacks' is sometimes necessary. Although I must say that the html>body hack is particularly brilliant, because if IE7 has indeed fixed its CSS support then it should take into account the selectors prefixed with html>body and render the page as it was originally intended (the same way as it is rendered in Opera / Firefox). The end result being that the page looks the same in IE6, IE7, Opera and Firefox. Brilliant!

    Hopefully, as more and more browsers move closer to decent web standards support, things will 'just work' and CSS will look the same in any browser on any platform. We can only dream...

  8. #7
    Senior Member hyperair's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mr Kipling
    IE6, however, is very much not standards-compliant, and that is why the ugly business of 'hacks' is sometimes necessary. Although I must say that the html>body hack is particularly brilliant, because if IE7 has indeed fixed its CSS support then it should take into account the selectors prefixed with html>body and render the page as it was originally intended (the same way as it is rendered in Opera / Firefox). The end result being that the page looks the same in IE6, IE7, Opera and Firefox. Brilliant!
    Firstly html>body is not the only hack I was speaking about. There are many others, if you look around the net such as the underscore hack, which backfired miserably, if I'm not mistaken. Although I agree with you that IE 6 is not very standards compliant, again I must emphasize that I was speaking Javascript wise. There are a few differences I have noticed before such as those to do with scrollHeight, scrollWidth and so on, and during the time of Opera 8, it crashed on a regular basis every time I used it for surfing (therefore I stick with my beloved Firefox).

    Quote Originally Posted by Mr Kipling
    Hopefully, as more and more browsers move closer to decent web standards support, things will 'just work' and CSS will look the same in any browser on any platform. We can only dream...
    You are very right in saying we can only dream. Such things will never happen, as each producer keeps adding proprietary features to the browsers that make things render differently. Come to think of it, if everything rendered the same, would there be competition, other than performance and GUI?
    Hyperair

  9. #8
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    Quote Originally Posted by hyperair
    Firstly html>body is not the only hack I was speaking about. There are many others, if you look around the net such as the underscore hack, which backfired miserably, if I'm not mistaken. Although I agree with you that IE 6 is not very standards compliant, again I must emphasize that I was speaking Javascript wise. There are a few differences I have noticed before such as those to do with scrollHeight, scrollWidth and so on, and during the time of Opera 8, it crashed on a regular basis every time I used it for surfing (therefore I stick with my beloved Firefox).
    My mistake; the only hack I've ever had to apply is html>body, as the only differences I've needed to correct have been CSS rendering issues in IE. That Opera has had JavaScript issues in the past doesn't surprise me, seeing as it used to weigh in at a mere 3.5MB or thereabouts. I do urge you to not to write it off, and to consider giving it another go, as I haven't encountered any such problems in the latest version (9.0) and I use it for my day-to-browsing. The customisation features are excellent, web standards support is possibly the best around at the moment, and it is the closest that any browser has ever come to pure perfection*.

    Quote Originally Posted by hyperair
    You are very right in saying we can only dream. Such things will never happen, as each producer keeps adding proprietary features to the browsers that make things render differently. Come to think of it, if everything rendered the same, would there be competition, other than performance and GUI?
    I agree with you up to a point, but I'm still optimistic in hoping that one day the web will look the same on any browser. Modern browsers are moving away from proprietary features and embracing web standards, and if the W3C get their act together with the new draft then this new era of the web could arrive sooner than we expect.

    * in my opinion

  10. #9
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    Quote Originally Posted by hyperair
    Come to think of it, if everything rendered the same, would there be competition, other than performance and GUI?
    No, in fact. And guess what? That's how it should be! The browser shouldn't be competing for its weird features for designers, it should be competing for the useful features it carries for *users*. That's like saying that Windows Media Player adds a new feature to MP3 files. No, WMP's task, just like Winamp's, is playing all MP3s correctly. The thing that really differentiates them is the interface. And that's how it should be.

    As regards Safari, since I've started paying attention to it, I've almost never had to actually pay attention to it :-P DOM support in Safari has been excellent whenever I've needed to use it, and the same goes for Konqueror (since KDE 3.5) and IE6 (with some exceptions). The only thing I'm missing in non-Firefox/IE browsers is WYSIWYG editing for text areas. It's not a huge deal, obviously, but sometimes it's nice to have it :-)

  11. #10
    Senior Member hyperair's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Shadowfiend
    And that's how it should be.
    I agree with that to some extent. However, how it should be is not how it will be. It will either never be, or I die of old age waiting for the day to come.

    Quote Originally Posted by Shadowfiend
    As regards Safari, since I've started paying attention to it, I've almost never had to actually pay attention to it DOM support in Safari has been excellent whenever I've needed to use it, and the same goes for Konqueror (since KDE 3.5) and IE6 (with some exceptions). The only thing I'm missing in non-Firefox/IE browsers is WYSIWYG editing for text areas. It's not a huge deal, obviously, but sometimes it's nice to have it
    I never had a DHTML and DOM page working fine for Safari at that time (2 years back) and then I totally gave up on it. Perhaps since then, Safari has undergone some changes to finally bring about the support for DOM and DHTML. And maybe I might think about designing pages with consideration for Safari again (slim chance though, considering I don't have a Mac and dislike Macs greatly)

    By the way, as a side topic, there are slight differences. They have different ways of rendering sound from MP3s. Take WoW effects for example in Windows Media Player, and DFX (winamp extension) in Winamp. Those are the kinds of differences that exist for MP3 files (actually, all audio files, and the audio streams of video files as well).
    Hyperair


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