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Thread: WYSIWYG

  1. #1
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    Is there some prejudice against designers who use Dreamweaver, Golive, etc? I see a lot of posts bashing them. Is there any reason for this?

    10-12 years ago i wrote websites using strictly text editors and if i remember correctly, i sucked when it came to the artistic aspect, but i knew the code fairly well.

    Maybe 3 months ago i started messing around with Dreamweaver 8 and found it's really helped with my lack of artistic ability. I've had to learn CSS and i'm working on PHP and other languages but the ability to see the code translated immediatly helps a lot.

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  3. #2
    Senior Member -chris-'s Avatar
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    If you know how to write HTML, then the WYSIWYG editors are alright. The biggest reason people bash them is because of the design view. If you rely solely on the design view, and let the editor generate the HTML, then the code is crap. Most of the WYSIWYG editors generate bloated code if you let it.

    Personally, I use DW8, in split view. I don't mess with the design view except when I am looking for a particular section of the code. When it comes down to structuring the side, I use the code view and do the coding myself.
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  4. #3
    Senior Member Steax's Avatar
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    I use DW8 too, but in full coding view. DW helps (much like dedicated HTML-text editors) in making sure I close my tags and helps organize by collapsing sections of text. But if I didn't have DW and was told to work on another computer, I'd happily grab notepad and get to work.

    Another reason why people don't like Design-View WYSIWYG is because it usually generates "tag soup", unsemantic and unorganized text. DW, for example, will often create new span tags with class names like "class1", which is far less organized than "redtext" which a coding-view designer would use. This is also often messy and bloats the filesize. And not to mention the difficulty in working out lower-level bugs - some problems are only visible in the text and not in design view.

    Many do deserve to get bashed due to their lazyness to learn the bricks and cement of web design, but rather choose to be the sleepy architect who just tells his men "I want a three bedroom house in a T shape with the living room in the center".
    Note on code: If I give code, please note that it is simply sample code to demonstrate an effect. It is not meant to be used as-is; that is the programmer's job. I am not responsible to give you support or be held liable for anything that happens when using my code.

  5. #4
    Senior Member Kayo's Avatar
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    Dreamweaver could be a great program, but most people use it so they could easily make layouts with tables. I use to use DW8 because I like the split views. But when I got into more advenced stuff, such as using css layouts. I stop using it because it sometimes it renders in a way that no other browser does. Also, I found that I work better with a more simple user interface.

    for a while, I been using notepad++. Its a great program too. I been using it for most of my webdesigning career since I started using css. but now I am using Intype, which is currently free, but going to cost money soon. It has a clean simple user interface. My favorite feature is that it has auto completion (which I beleave DW8 has) so I could type "doctype" then hit tab, I select which doctype I want, then it save me time ripping it off one of my old websites.

  6. #5
    Senior Member Steax's Avatar
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    Yep, using tables become a lot easier in a WYSIWYG editor, and a lot of people are tempted to use them for layout instead of CSS. Thus the "DW" syndrome.

    One thing I didn't mention yet... people overuse special things in those editors that don't really exist in HTML, but are JS snippets and stuff. Like "layers", "behaviors", and "rollover buttons". If people never see the actual code, they won't notice the hundred lines of JS the editor had slapped in. Eventually this is why people dislike users of WYSIWYG editors: they like to ask, excuse me, stupid questions. They don't understand that the web doesn't change along with their editor - they often get the impression that their editor is "powerful" with features "not available in HTML", and sometimes they end up overusing those features.

    Anecdote:
    I remember a discussion about the best way to make rollover buttons. Some suggested small JS preloaders, some CSS attributes, all sorts of hacks and stuff. Then this one guy came in and said "thats easy! My whole website uses rollover buttons, use Dreamweaver!!111oneone" and sure enough his entire site had rollovers all over the place... and he asked why his homepage (which was a spectacular 2.5mb) loaded slowly.
    Note on code: If I give code, please note that it is simply sample code to demonstrate an effect. It is not meant to be used as-is; that is the programmer's job. I am not responsible to give you support or be held liable for anything that happens when using my code.

  7. #6
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    The problem with WYSIWYG is the same everywhere: it will rarely generate good code. I have nothing against those who use it, but I always recommend they stop, because you can't get any sort of understanding of what's on the web with WYSIWYG.

    Personally, I use ViM. I can move around documents in it extremely fast, and I've been doing this long enough where I can generally find my way through a document. As for the visual aspect -- I try to visualize in Inkscape or some other graphics program first, and then turn that into XHTML+CSS. While somewhat slower, it's an approach that works quite well for me, though I still can't visualize particularly well.

  8. #7
    Senior Member planetgman's Avatar
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    WYSIWYG editors do generate "dirty code". I don't think that people on here bash them (unless you mention Frontpage).

    I have nothing against Dreamweaver myself or even Go Live. They integrate nicely with the other Adobe and Macromedia products.
    I do agree if you are designing solely in WYSIWYG view, then you will have problems.

    Just taking a look at the advice on this one shows that nobody bashes it, they all just use different techniques or programs.
    Plus, if you are learning CSS and PHP, you will soon realize DW isn't going to be an issue.

    Good luck.........
    GMan

  9. #8
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    WYSIWYG are not yet intelligent enough to design code. Currently they code as you add new elements. In my opinion they shouldn't. There should be a "code it" button when you are done. This way they can separate individual elements on the page and generate better code.

    Furthermore a person with no knowledge of coding could create what dreamweaver gives you if they put in a week of hard studying.

  10. #9
    Senior Member Shani's Avatar
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    WYSIWYGs are great for some things. DW and GoLive both have integrated file management and FTP. The code is color-coded. Auto-complete.

    I have been known to use the design view to put in an object, because I'm too lazy to remember all the parameters.

    As long as you don't rely on design view and don't expect to actually Get What You See, I do not think there's a problem with using a WYSIWYG.
    Shani

    I have an eye for detail like you'd never believe.

  11. #10
    Senior Member Kayo's Avatar
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    As long as you don't rely on design view and don't expect to actually Get What You See, I do not think there's a problem with using a WYSIWYG.
    we've been talking about that all the time. It just people just want to just it for only table. The "Web crew" of our school uses dreamweaver. But they never got into the coding of the website (other then adding a javascript to show you the time) and its horrible looking code. This is our website... Link

    The website looks ok, but look at the messy code, and they used flash for the menu. They depend so much on a WYSIWYG software, that they don't want to learn any language at all. Instead of using html/css for the nav, they use flash (its realy annoing because we have to keep reinstalling the flash plugin everytime we restart the computer) This is a web standards crime. For fun, I just redone the home page, which has much cleaner code... Link

    See the difference in the code. DW vs hand code. Hand code always the better way. You could use it to help you, but use it the proper way. don't let tables take over the website.


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