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Thread: Your don'ts

  1. #21
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    ok but what do you mean mess up what your looking at...i really cant understand the dislike when used for a certain type of site...in fact i see alot of real nice easy to look at sites using iframes...i mean i can see not using them on a page offering support or downloads etc. but seriousl on sites with artistic content i think they compliment the content quite nicely and by the amount of graphic artists, designers etc using them they must agree...discuss : )

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  3. #22
    Senior Member Brak's Avatar
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    I think a lot of transios don'ts are a bit closed minded.. he's more the straight up business marketing is the only thing in the world mindset... Where some of us aim for look/function over usability and compatibility..

    One thing I do disagree with you on transio (oops, I guess that's two rules in one ) is the inverted text... I've asked quite a few people (mainly middle-aged people) and they tend to prefer inverted text because the monitor isn't as bright as when it's black on white. Inverted text makes the entire monitor more subdued and allows for a more comfortable reading situation (when appropriate of course).
    Kyle Neath: Rockstar extraordinare
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  4. #23
    Senior Member Sewolf's Avatar
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    Deck2k don't get me wrong, they may work great with photo gallery's, but I have seen where I have tried to leave a site with frames and get stuck viewing other web content from other sites within the prev. sites frame. 2 sites or more together in one browser window gets confusing. Don't ask me the site that this has happened I don't know but I dislike it and well working with them designing web pages is really really bad for me. I have this problem with electronics, it can be screwed up..... no thats not right...... If there is something that can't be done to mess up something electronic, I can do it just by looking at it. LOL :-P
    My younger brother is a IT tech and him and I have a perfect co-operation, he fixes my opps on my computer, and I repair and maintain his diesel 4X4 Pickup Truck. ;-)


    Sewolf

  5. #24
    WDF Staff smoseley's Avatar
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    Originally posted by Brak
    I've asked quite a few people (mainly middle-aged people) and they tend to prefer inverted text because the monitor isn't as bright as when it's black on white
    This isn't a question of preference. It's a matter of fact that if you use white text on a black background 1/4 less people will read it.

    The reason older might "prefer" inverted text is because it's graphically easier on their eyes. By the same token, some might "prefer" to look at a medium-gray text on a white background, because the low-contrast text is less painful to look at.

    That doesn't change the fact that black text on a white background is easier to read, though. The text is more discernable and consistent with every text book, magazine, and newspaper you ever read, and thus increases readership significantly.

    Call it "old school marketing" if you want to, but when I take my valuable time to create text content, I place enough value in it that I want people to actually READ IT, not just LOOK AT IT.

  6. #25
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    I think thats the one thing ppl have to keep in mind when getting their sites reviewed by other designers, web ppl etc is that sometimes a certain element or technology might not work for them so therefore (and totally understandably) becomes something they dont like. I did a quick look around the web at some of the larger design firms and i see iframes everywhere and these guys are pulling in the dough so i think if you take the time to learn how to use something properly it loses some of its bad reputation : )

  7. #26
    WDF Staff smoseley's Avatar
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    deck,

    Just because the big guys do something doesn't make it good.

    There are two reasons frames and iframes are not good for MOST websites:
    1. They confuse a small percentage of the population, alienating them from your website, and
    2. They don't get indexed properly by search engines.

    So if your site is marketing oriented (which most sites that use iframes are), iframes wouldn't be the best choice because a) you'll get less people to your site, and b) you'll confuse some of the people once they get there.

    These are basic web design FACTS. What you choose to do with them is up to you. I can tell you as a matter of FACT, though, that 90% of the sites that you admire don't make a penny, because they're not designed to sell.

    If you're making a blog or a forum, I guess it doesn't matter so much... but blogs and forums w/ 10 members won't reach any significant audience or have any valuable information. I'm talking about designing sites that are meant to reach large audiences and offer valuable content.

  8. #27
    WDF Staff smoseley's Avatar
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    BTW... you guys can argue with me as much as you like, but that won't change rule #22 :-P

  9. #28
    Senior Member Brak's Avatar
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    Haha.. transio, like I said I wasn't arguing with you (although I did point out that by doing so I was breaking two rules), I'm saying lots of sites aren't made to sell. Which is exactly my point, for marketing-oriented sites I agree with you almost 100%.. but for the majority of my sites, I'm saying it's a bit harsh. About the inverted text... I thinkt hat's just a preference between you and me. When I look at magazines all the text that is made to stand out or be heard is 90% of the time inverted (see captions, ads, etc).

    Also you have to decide what is the most important factor in your site: the content, graphics, or something else. If I'm making an online-portfolio for an artist.. I want the art to stand out.. not the titles, sizes, etc. Artists would rather have people look at the art instead of the content.. if you go into an art gallery chances are the price tag with all the info is a good 10pt if that on a clear tag that is very hard to find/read... The same goes for a website, a black background will bring out the graphics more so than the text.
    Kyle Neath: Rockstar extraordinare
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  10. #29
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    i still dont agree..im seeing tons of high end marketing sites that are probably making tons of cash (ads and sites for tons of brand name companies. Im also seeing estabished artists and designers that make buttloads of money using them and think about it alot of ppl dont have flash plugins but tons of companies use them. But i do agree with you it does depend on who you are marketing too...if your market is more design related (not sites for the local seniors apple jamboree-fest) then the ppl who you are marketing too are 1. not confused by iframes (i mean most ppl realize now what a scrollbar means) 2. Are not running windows 3.1 and ie B.C. version (which came with a free pass to the chariot races) so i now re-dub rule 21: as use iframes if they make sense to your market and site...i have spoken (sorry i went a little crazy there) : )

  11. #30
    WDF Staff smoseley's Avatar
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    You're both still assuming that I'm expressing opinion here. I'm not... I'm simply relating facts that I've learned through extensive reading of books by many advertising gurus. I'm talking about the people who INVENTED modern advertising. These are people who've been doing this stuff for 50 years and have tried everything. They've tested different typefaces, color combinations, caption placements, image placements, title fonts, clip-out augmentations, column divisions, you name it. They test their work by running 50/50 ads with magazines and newspapers in a test market (where half the people in their market get one ad and half get another). By responses to each ad, they can determine what works better. By doing that, the masters have narrowed advertising down to a science. Print advertising requires creativity to a degree, mostly relating to the copy, but visually, it is a science. You may see a lot of print ads that use inverted text and don't follow "the rules", but they are generally created by people that don't KNOW the rules or are trying to achieve a different effect than sales.

    As for the web, the same rules don't apply 100%, but there is one GENERAL rule that applies to any form of advertising... if you want people to read your copy, make it look like a news article or educational text. When applying that to print advertising, you want to copy the articles in the newspaper of magazine that you're advertising in. For the web, you should attempt to emulate the websites that offer news articles or educational content. Look at your msn.com, cnn.com, cspan.com, w3c.com, msdn.com, any forums, or any other site that offers valuable content. If your interface looks like them and your content has something more than cheesey self-promotion to it, you will sell something. Whether that something is a piece of artwork, your design services, or a book, that's the way to do it. It's that simple.

    Now the challenge to you guys is this: find me one news site or large content site that uses inverted text or iframes. Then I'll concede on my rules.


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