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  1. #1
    Senior Member Ferro's Avatar
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    Hi.
    I only started this stuff a few months ago, and started directly using css and lean html to make my pages. I was interested in learning the up to date methods. It seemed to make sense, especially as I've done a touch of Autocad in the past.
    I have never actually made a site using tables, although I do know how to use them for tabular data.
    I notice that a lot of employers ask for "dreamweaver" skills in the required skills lists for trainee designers/developers etc.
    Question is - regarding possible future freelance work/employment which I will hopefully be aiming for IF I can get good enough - is it actually necessary for me to learn how to use tables as well? It seems like taking a step backward. The thought has occured to me in case someone asked specifically for a site to be made using tables/dreamweaver. Do you see what I mean? It seems like a pointless exercise after edging towards xhtml/css markup. The time could be spent learning php/javascript/sql etc. etc.
    Any advice? Thanks.

    ???

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  3. #2
    Senior Member Karloff's Avatar
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    i'm still fairly new at freelance (and by no means highly skilled in web dev) but i always state to ppl that i only code in valid xhtml/css/php ... whatever. i then exxplain about why.... accessiblty, legal reason to conform, and a hole load of other stuff. i think it is always good to know how to do the old stuff incase you have to reworke something but if you know how to code tables (for tabluar data) you should know your stuff enough to use it for a layout (if some crazy client ask 4 it.

    but like i said, i ain't the greatest... far from it. still a beginner:-)

  4. #3
    Senior Member -chris-'s Avatar
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    You can do CSS designs in Dreamweaver, I do. I think that when they are asking for DW experience, I think that they want you to know how to use the program, and all that it does.
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  5. #4
    Senior Member Steax's Avatar
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    "Dreamweaver competence" is just some cool buzzword someone made up to conform to Dreamweaver's massive user base.

    It by no means exists in any form.

    Tell them, politely, that you are skilled in creating websites, even in notepad, and can accomplish anything that dreamweaver can do.

    Dreamweaver's templates are in CSS, by the way. I usually hand-code things in the code view, and just use the design view to make sure my layout is intact (although I often just refresh my site in my browser too).

    Now, about learning tables. No, there is no need to learn them, trust me. If you're going to make websites through text - like 99% of the professionals do it - you'll see, very quickly, that you can't make a competent layout via tables any easier than CSS. Trust me on that.

    People always use the design view for table layouting, and thats why they fail the ultimate test of design - to control the actual bricks of their design, not the wallpaper.
    Note on code: If I give code, please note that it is simply sample code to demonstrate an effect. It is not meant to be used as-is; that is the programmer's job. I am not responsible to give you support or be held liable for anything that happens when using my code.

  6. #5
    Senior Member karinne's Avatar
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    Most, I think, want someone who understands the functionality of the DW Templates (.tpl). As for coding in tables .. no way! Do it right and tell them why.

    Check out this thread I created below (I'm still waiting for it to get stickied somewhere :ermm - Resources for learning how to use CSS for layout - in there, you'll have all the amunition you need to tell them you don't code in tables and why
    [a web design portfolio - Currently NOT AVAILABLE for work | web design | Re-coding | PSD-to-HTML]
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  7. #6
    Senior Member Steax's Avatar
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    And if you ever run out of ammunition to convince your employers, tell them that they'll see no difference to the result and you'll do exactly how they want you to make, with the modern method.

    The concept of dreamweaver templates has been surpassed by programming languages. Use those instead. .tpl files only have the advantage of being visible in dreamweaver. In the end it doesn't do much, and you can easily end up wasting lots of space on individual pages, when you could have just included them via a SSL.
    Note on code: If I give code, please note that it is simply sample code to demonstrate an effect. It is not meant to be used as-is; that is the programmer's job. I am not responsible to give you support or be held liable for anything that happens when using my code.

  8. #7
    Senior Member
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    SSI, even ;-)

  9. #8
    Senior Member Ferro's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Steax
    "Dreamweaver competence" is just some cool buzzword someone made up to conform to Dreamweaver's massive user base.
    Yeah funny - almost everyone I know (socially) actually who makes websites to some degree uses DW. I'm the only one of us that hand codes - the ironic thing about that being that I first started doing that because I couldn't afford DW! So I used notepad instead (use notepad++ now). When I tell people that DW renders clumsy code, and wouldn't they prefer to do it by hand coding all I get is them saying "Eh? Dreamweaver's excellent, Dreamweaver's the way to go for website design, there's so much you can DO with it".

    Quote Originally Posted by Steax
    Now, about learning tables. No, there is no need to learn them, trust me. If you're going to make websites through text - like 99% of the professionals do it - you'll see, very quickly, that you can't make a competent layout via tables any easier than CSS. Trust me on that.
    Thank you - that puts my mind at rest. I don't think I'd have it any other way than hand coding now I'm used to it.......

    Quote Originally Posted by Karinne
    Most, I think, want someone who understands the functionality of the DW Templates (.tpl)
    So do you mean that without actually learning DW itself it might be worth becoming familiar with the templates and what they do? Or would you perusade your client/employer not to use DW templates at all?

    Thanks for the replies people, I was really hoping that would be the case ...... means I don't have to waste time and effort learning a "worse" method.......

  10. #9
    Senior Member Steax's Avatar
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    Tell him that DW templates are nothing more than pieces of code used on your computer, that his users will never even know they're used (or not used), and that you have a much smarter and flexible method to do what he wants.

    There's nothing special you can do in DW, it only simplifies HTML construction - well, it tries to simplify it. If anyone must have been angry at the destruction of the font tag, it must have been the guys who made DW.
    Note on code: If I give code, please note that it is simply sample code to demonstrate an effect. It is not meant to be used as-is; that is the programmer's job. I am not responsible to give you support or be held liable for anything that happens when using my code.

  11. #10
    Senior Member raspberryh's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ferro
    I tell people that DW renders clumsy code
    In my opinion, DW rendering clumsy code only has to do with whoever is using it. Some people use DW and select the text that they want to change the style of, and go down to the properties panel and select the font and color and everything, instead of defining a style for it. I mean yeah, DW is going to provide the ability to do that, for the people who aren't experts at web dev, but as for the ones who are, they should know better and go create a style for the font.

    If you're lazy you may choose to use DW's JS rollovers... They're going to be there for those who want it. But a good designer knows better and will do it the right way.

    DW is just a tool. The code it creates is just dependent on the person who developed that website. If you're a crappy designer, you're going to create crappy code. If you're good, then you'll use all the awesome tools that DW provides to your own benefit and still get clean code.

    That's my opinion anyways. But, to each his own.
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