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Thread: My High Search Ranking...What Happened...???

  1. #11
    Unpaid WDF Intern TheGAME1264's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by mark4man, post: 236730
    I created a separate layer (#77) for my <h1> tag heading...& hid it (using Z-indexing) in back of a layer (#3) that contained a graphic of the exact same site description. this way, it's not visible...but will be picked up by the crawlers (will it, I hope...is this legit?)
    There is a technique you can use to do this that is legitimate, but it comes down to intent and I wouldn't recommend it. What you can do is create an H1 tag and modify the CSS to use a background for the H1 tag and a text-indent to ensure that the plain text doesn't get in the way of the background. It's (somewhat) commonly used for navigation links, and there is again a legitimate reason to do so (look up "CSS Sprites" for some tutorials on the what and the why).

    What you're doing, however? Not so much. It peeked out under the graphic, and if you got a short-term benefit from it, it'd be all too easy for one of your competitors to spot it, report you, and knock you back. Look at it this way...if you could squeal on someone else for doing it and have a legitimate case, you probably shouldn't be doing it yourself.
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  3. #12
    Senior Member Webzarus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by mark4man, post: 236730
    I created a separate layer (#77) for my <h1> tag heading...& hid it (using Z-indexing) in back of a layer (#3) that contained a graphic of the exact same site description. this way, it's not visible...but will be picked up by the crawlers (will it, I hope...is this legit?)
    Anything that could be seen as "trying to trick a search engine" to rate your page or site higher than your content allows.... Can get you not only blocked but banned.

    This includes using CSS layering of any content that may obsess ire other content...

    The fact that you even mention it means all the big search engines Re already aware of the practice.. And don't think you could have an original idea when it comes to this stuff. Search engines only rate your site on content... "being readable text"... Whether its keywords, content, alt text, titles, captions... But don't think they don't look at your CSS too... Way to many ways to hide and obscure text to make search engines see it, but not the visitors...

    If you're doing it now and getting away with it... It won't be long... Before an update either removes you from the index or puts you so far back... You may as well not be listed.

    I've seen it happen so many times, where wannabe SEO gurus try to use CSS to hide things to drive up keyword relevancy only to get the site removed from indexes... The people at google, yahoo, bing and any of the other major search engines that index your site... Have much bigger brains than you or I.

    Their job is to find "relevant content" to deliver to their users... Anyone trying to manipulate the process will just get smacked down. Providing good quality, original, relevant content is the only key here... Time will only help your position.

  4. #13
    Member mark4man's Avatar
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    listen fellas...

    I did this simply because having text in the body undefined by coordinates doesn't fit w/ my design scheme. my basic site description...that is, who I am & what I do...which IS the primary relative aspect of my business...is already shown on my home page...but in the form of a graphics file (.jpg) which is the 'SubTitle' in my (raster-based) 'Header'...'cause that approach fits nicely w/ my design scheme. I wanted to have the same, capitalzed typewriter font that is used in both my Title & in my Navigation buttons...that's all. I'm a businessman...not a designer like u guyz. I just came here lookin' for help.

    so...naturally thinking that I really needed <h1>'s for SEO...I simply placed the same exact text in a <div> under the graphics file. I actually think my site DOES contain worthwhile content...but y'all be the judge : MoonMix Studios

    I had no idea what I did was frowned upon...I'm just trying to get back where I was

  5. #14
    Unpaid WDF Intern TheGAME1264's Avatar
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    That's just it...if you're going to try things like that to get you back to where you were, then you're going to appear to be playing tricks. Whether you are or whether you aren't really doesn't matter...it's perception, and ultimately the judges in this case are search engines themselves. This is one of the problems with design and SEO as a whole...sometimes you have to do things that might not necessarily look right in your eyes to make them work (not anywhere near as much as it used to be, but that is a consideration now.)
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    Quote Originally Posted by smoseley, post: 236761
    None of your examples are "over" optimization. Keyword stuffing is "poor" optimization, or deoptimization. Acquiring too many links is not optimization, either. If it's "too many", by definition it's not optimization.

    Game's point was that word "optimal" refers to a state of perfection. If that state is attained, there's no going beyond it - you can't optimize beyond optimal state. Thus, it's literally impossible to "over-optimize" (at least, in the English language, it is).

    His frustration is that the term is used incorrectly, and was obviously invented by people who don't understand English too well, or who aren't too bright.

    To GAME: are you really so surprised? SEO as a career doesn't exactly attract the brightest individuals.
    It might be poor optimization but this is also the state of over optimizing your site for a keyword. And in reference to links, to many links isn't over optimization but over target keyword anchor text is and will hurt you.

    There is not such thing as optimal when it comes to SEO, because no one know what works 100% therefore you can't have a stat of perfection, unless you are Google.

    Keyword stuffing is poor optimization but that is only because it's been over optimized. Also over optimized comes from back in the day when you would sacrifice user experience for keywords and links etc.

    Also if you care that much about English take up English as a profession.
    I run a local SEO & Web Designer. Business Web Designs

  7. #16
    WDF Staff smoseley's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Isaac, post: 236818
    It might be poor optimization but this is also the state of over optimizing your site for a keyword. And in reference to links, to many links isn't over optimization but over target keyword anchor text is and will hurt you.
    You don't understand optimization (as a concept). "Optimization" does not refer to the act of adding words to your site, or getting links. Search Engine Optimization literally is the act of improving your website's search engine rankings. If you're not improving them, you're not optimizing.

    As a career, it's like Construction. If you hire a contractor to build an extension to your house, and he comes and knocks down your existing house, did he do Construction? NO!! He did Destruction. He may argue that he brought a crew, and a crane, and bricks, and they piled a bunch of bricks on top of your existing house by accident and as a result broke it... but they were TRYING to do Construction... doesn't change the fact that they didn't build anything.

    Same goes for SEO. If you're not optimizing the SERPS, you're not doing SEO. Over-optimization is a misnomer for failure.

    Main difference between optimization and construction is that construction is an additive process, whereas optimization is a finish process, meaning a process of perfecting an existing thing. So whereas construction is an o=w formula of output=work, optimization is o=1/w. The closer you get to optimal state, the less optimization efforts improve your state. It's governed by a hyperbolic formula. You constantly "approach" perfection, never "attain" perfection.

    If you're not approaching perfection, you're not "optimizing". You're failing to optimize. You may still call yourself an SEO by trade, but the work you're doing is the same a s a home "builder" knocking down people's homes.

    Quote Originally Posted by Isaac, post: 236818
    There is not such thing as optimal when it comes to SEO, because no one know what works 100% therefore you can't have a stat of perfection, unless you are Google.
    Fallacy on both counts. First of all, intelligent people have inferred the "unwritten rules" of SEO. Even you know that keyword stuffing is not optimal. How do you know that? It's not magic. It's the same way Newton conceived Gravity. You don't have to know its inner workings to know exactly how it works. It's called observation, trial & error, and Scientific Method - means we have used for millenia to infer unwritten rules.

    Second, even if no one knew how Google worked, that doesn't negate the existence of an optimal content state per Google's algorithm. It exists whether or not you can figure it out.

    Quote Originally Posted by Isaac, post: 236818
    Keyword stuffing is poor optimization but that is only because it's been over optimized. Also over optimized comes from back in the day when you would sacrifice user experience for keywords and links etc.
    Again, it's not over-optimization. It's over-stuffing, which is deoptimization.

    Quote Originally Posted by Isaac, post: 236818
    Also if you care that much about English take up English as a profession.
    Who are you to define how much people should care about English? I use it on a daily basis - that's enough reason for me to care about it. As for yourself... you are in a profession that requires mastery of the language. The fact that you DON'T care about English speaks volumes about you.

  8. #17
    Unpaid WDF Intern TheGAME1264's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Isaac, post: 236818
    Also if you care that much about English take up English as a profession.
    You practice SEO. Copywriting is an important component of SEO, and a prerequisite of a good copywriter is to understand the English language. This includes the ability to comprehend such terms as "optimization" and why "over optimization" cannot and does not exist. Moseley has done an excellent job of explaining this to you in detail, and if you do not understand what he's saying or if you disagree, you shouldn't call yourself an SEO.

    On second thought, maybe you should...after all, we are talking about SEO.
    smoseley and AlphaMare like this.
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  9. #18
    WDF Staff smoseley's Avatar
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    By the way, Game, why do you use "optimize" and not "optimise"? I thought you guys used British spelling up in Canada?

  10. #19
    Unpaid WDF Intern TheGAME1264's Avatar
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    We do, but for some reason "optimize" and a few other words slipped through the cracks. I'm not really sure why, either.
    If I've helped you out in any way, please pay it forward. My wife and I are walking for Autism Speaks. Please donate, and thanks.

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  11. #20
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    Quote Originally Posted by smoseley, post: 236853
    You don't understand optimization (as a concept). "Optimization" does not refer to the act of adding words to your site, or getting links. Search Engine Optimization literally is the act of improving your website's search engine rankings. If you're not improving them, you're not optimizing.

    As a career, it's like Construction. If you hire a contractor to build an extension to your house, and he comes and knocks down your existing house, did he do Construction? NO!! He did Destruction. He may argue that he brought a crew, and a crane, and bricks, and they piled a bunch of bricks on top of your existing house by accident and as a result broke it... but they were TRYING to do Construction... doesn't change the fact that they didn't build anything.

    Same goes for SEO. If you're not optimizing the SERPS, you're not doing SEO. Over-optimization is a misnomer for failure.

    Main difference between optimization and construction is that construction is an additive process, whereas optimization is a finish process, meaning a process of perfecting an existing thing. So whereas construction is an o=w formula of output=work, optimization is o=1/w. The closer you get to optimal state, the less optimization efforts improve your state. It's governed by a hyperbolic formula. You constantly "approach" perfection, never "attain" perfection.

    If you're not approaching perfection, you're not "optimizing". You're failing to optimize. You may still call yourself an SEO by trade, but the work you're doing is the same a s a home "builder" knocking down people's homes.

    Fallacy on both counts. First of all, intelligent people have inferred the "unwritten rules" of SEO. Even you know that keyword stuffing is not optimal. How do you know that? It's not magic. It's the same way Newton conceived Gravity. You don't have to know its inner workings to know exactly how it works. It's called observation, trial & error, and Scientific Method - means we have used for millenia to infer unwritten rules.

    Second, even if no one knew how Google worked, that doesn't negate the existence of an optimal content state per Google's algorithm. It exists whether or not you can figure it out.

    Again, it's not over-optimization. It's over-stuffing, which is deoptimization.

    Who are you to define how much people should care about English? I use it on a daily basis - that's enough reason for me to care about it. As for yourself... you are in a profession that requires mastery of the language. The fact that you DON'T care about English speaks volumes about you.
    I have to give it to you amazing post. Allot of work went into that and I agree with you but (there it is) for example before panda and penguin everyone would have told you to just push your targeted anchor for what you want to rank plus some brand and natural linking.

    After panda hit, what would you call the peoples sites who where hit by panda? De optimized? No there where optimizing there site until the update(improving rankings), then they became over optimization for there keyword. It's simple it's only people that don't know what they are doing that get affected by over optimized sites, but people use this wording, it might not be right in the English language, but they use it and there is still a different meaning to what the dictionary says. So when Game said that he doesn't know why people use it, I just simply explained.

    Over optimization is when people stuff up in the SEO world, when they take something that they through would optimize there site and become so obsessed with it that they hurt there rankings or Google changes the rules and they become over optimized, or not optimized at all.

    Really it shouldn't be used ever because even when a update comes up they no longer are optimized for there keyword, but people have trouble letting go off the old and accepting the new and so the word over optimization gets used.

    Also to "GAME" copyrighting it massive for SEO and can impact rankings allot more then people think.

    Try understand where I'm coming from and keep the post short boys =)
    smoseley likes this.
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