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  1. #11
    Member paulo f's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by TheGAME1264, post: 245998
    ...(e.g. the timeline) and there was a survey a while back that indicated that the majority of people dislike it. I ....
    Thats the case in 90% of the cases when a major change happens. After a while people get acostume to it and most start enjoying it.

    Thats why theres allot of peeps that defend that its best to make small changes towards what you want it to become instead of making one big change.

    As for privacy issues, if people where so keen to defend their privacy they wouldnt have a social profile to start with and would avoid google based services as they are widely known to be very intrusive.

    The instagram issue was indeed a farfetched idea, that i wouldnt be surprised if in the future itfuture become de facto stardart..
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  3. #12
    Member paulo f's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by TheGAME1264, post: 245999
    This would make sense if social networks were set up with a business-to-customer relationship in mind. They were never set up this way (with the possible exception of LinkedIn) and they tend to generate lower ROIs and conversion ratios than things such as search and a referral link from a solid source of traffic.

    Facebook and Twitter aren't malls, and the people that use them aren't customers...they're users first and foremost. They're not primarily there to actively seek information and/or things to buy...their primary goal is simply to talk to other people. The problem is that the message of "you can reach your customers on social media" is so engrained that people don't question it anymore. This isn't to say that people can't become customers, but that it should at best be a complementary source of potential business.
    I agree, and its exacly the possibility of managing your facebook fan page and/or profile to become a complementary source of business that makes it mandatory.

    Not only that, people like to interact with brands/companies, they like to see activity.
    It reminds me a Hotel in Mexico, The Bahia Pricipe PR constantly replies to reviews posted on the web about the hotel on (but not only) Trip Advisor, people enjoy it, and some of the posts there talk about how it helped people decido into choosing this hotels for they vacations.
    This PR for sure devotes allot of time to this, but its working.

    Now it may differ from business to business, even if it brings you X business, is it worth it? maybe not.
    Is it fair to only consider the Analytics data to evaluate what business came from your social profiles ? maybe not.

    Quote Originally Posted by Webzarus, post: 246004
    The last time I heard someone preaching how "every business" needs to be on Facebook... It was from a "social marketing specialist", who promised they could get me $100k in increased sales for the measly cost of only $10k.

    I said great, but here's the catch, you get me an increase of $100k in sales that you can verify came from your efforts, I'll be glad to pay you the $10k but only AFTER you get me the sales.

    Actually had 1 company take the deal... They gave up after 3 months ( actually closed their business ), what was my companies benefit from 3 months of "social marketing"? $0 net.

    Point is, the "social marketing speciist" actually believe thier own spiel, until asked to do something that might cost them money.

    As TheGame pointed out above, none of the social platforms are actually designed for this kind of stuff, not even linkedin is, but at least LinkedIn has "groups" based on interest and industries that as long as you set yourself up properly, people will find you.

    Facebook... Unless you're giving something away, people generally ignore your ads, and I've yet to find anyone on Facebook that is looking for high efficiency transformer materials. Hey, it's a billion dollar global industry
    What you just said about that "social marketing specialist" is also true for allot of SEO specialist. Theres a reason why Matt Cutts calls this the new Snake Oil Salesman .
    I am not saying SEO is not usefull, just not as most of the "SEO specialist" make it out to be.

    After a few seconds on the web searching for SEO, you will find LOTS of companies offering you to place your website onthe 1 page of google organic search results for the keywords you require. Unfortunalty, as Matt Cutts said, theres allot of people that believe them.

    Social profiles dont work for ALL the businesses, but for most.
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  4. #13
    Unpaid WDF Intern TheGAME1264's Avatar
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    That's just it, Paulo. Sure, people like to see activity on a Facebook business page. That doesn't necessarily indicates conversion. You give the example of the Bahia Principe resort in Mexico, but neither you nor I nor anyone else outside of the resort has any way of knowing whether or not it's actually generating a positive or negative ROI for them. Most people say this because they form a speculative conclusion based on "I like what they're doing, so it has to work", without any real way to validate their speculation.

    Do their efforts increase sales? Yeah, probably. It would be stupid to suggest otherwise.
    But do their efforts actually generate sufficient profit that could not be generated if they devoted their resources in other directions? This is the question almost no one asks, and they probably should. Speaking from experience, I've actually tracked referrals and conversions (thank you for making this part ridiculously easy, Google Analytics). I've seen vendor/supplier sites that outperform the major social media sites. I've even seen one vendor's site that outperformed Bing/Yahoo put together (yeah, I know Bing powers Yahoo! but I'm talking about the referrals/conversions from both sites). I have never seen Facebook, Twitter, or any of the other players as more than a distant 5th in terms of both referrals and conversions, and this goes for my clients that do and don't have Facebook business pages and Twitter accounts.

    Sites such as Goby and scout.me are passing them by in that regard, never mind the big two, and I don't have to do a thing to "maintain a relationship with customers"...I didn't even know they existed until they started sending my sites traffic. That's as organic as it gets right there.

    I'm not going to speak for WZ because I don't know how deeply he's analyzed this sort of thing, other than to say I'd suspect he's studied his stats and seen similar results.

    SEO being full of snake oil salesmen? You're absolutely right, and you won't get as much of a shred of an argument from WZ or I, but that wasn't his point. His point was that the social media snake oil salesmen are just as prevalent, with an added bit of danger in that they actually believe in what they're saying without having done the analysis or real work to back it up.

    So, now that you see where we're coming from, Paulo, I'm going to ask you a non-rhetorical question...what of your own actual experiences are you basing your statements on?
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  5. #14
    Member paulo f's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by TheGAME1264, post: 246019
    .
    Just to be clear, i did not meant that all SEO specialists are Snake Oil salesman, i meant only those that promise to much are Snake Oil salesman, the same happens with the Social Media specialist.

    Getting back to analyzing results. Its very hard to analyze results from social media efforts, using google analytics wont cut it, atleast wont be fair, Social Media networks are not directory submition sites like Dmoz, not all people that are influenced by your social media efforts will go to your site threw facebook or alike.
    Everyone agrees that the strongest advertisement is the Word of mouth, just like the real life example of the Hotel. It was not my impression that their efforts were working, i have that as a certainty because of the review site that everyone know people talk about how they decided to go their after seeing the hotel efforts on that site, some even contacted the PR after seeing some of his replies and place questions directly to him. In this hotel case it is evident that their efforts are working.

    You wonder if they could get better results if they focused somewhere else, maybe,thats the problem, unless your interaction is pretty much null, theres no way to be sure.
    Google Analytics wont answer the question in its full extent, it will give you a strong tendency, maybe.

    Keep in mind that i agree that social media does not work for all products. For example, lets consider company with only a few products, not mainstream, not expensive. Most probably they wont get enought results to justify hours of work around social profiles per week.
    But this brings another question. Nowadays, not having a social profile doesnt it have a cost on your company image?

    Personal Experience: Personally i never worked as a PR. I do know a small company that most of the revenue comes from facebook.
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  6. #15
    Unpaid WDF Intern TheGAME1264's Avatar
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    Again, though, you can't make that statement with absolute certainty. A few people may use Facebook to see the Q&A, visit the hotel, and post a positive review, which can very well happen. However, I would suggest to you that those people are not in the majority. Not sure if you've ever heard the term "the vocal minority" before, but I would suggest that it's what those people are.

    What you're also missing, and again I suspect it's because you've never really studied this in detail, is that there are sources of traffic that, for much less effort, will generate 10x or greater levels of traffic and conversions. Take this site for example (this is the vendor I was referring to earlier):

    http://www.bingemans.com/

    Doesn't look like very much, right? A fairly simple site with some information, no real interactivity other than the contact form, archaic code, one could easily argue that it's dated, etc. This is the supplier I was referring to earlier, though, via their Events page. I had a client that used to do consumer home shows at this venue, and this is the site that would outperform BingHoo!. I'd spend about 30 minutes out of a calendar year sending an email to my contact at Bingemans saying "here's the event info, can you link to us?", and it would consistently generate in the high-4 to low-5 digits in trackable revenue in return. Now, this is an extreme example and a somewhat bizarre one, but it's one of many I could easily come up with. There's nothing I or my clients could do on Facebook that would generate anywhere near that kind of ROI unless we caught lightning in a bottle. Why? The Bingemans site is specifically structured to assist both the company and its customers, whereas Facebook is not.

    Just to be clear, though, I haven't just measured this sort of thing with Google Analytics. My clients and I have measured it a few different ways and we've come to the same conclusion regardless of "metric".
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  7. #16
    Member paulo f's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by TheGAME1264, post: 246035
    Again, though, you can't make that statement with absolute certainty. ... the term "the vocal minority" before, but I would suggest that it's what those people are.
    I have no doubt that only a small portion of the hotel guests (the touristic complex comprises 4 hotels with a daily avg of 7500 guest) posts a positive review or a negative one.
    But this also means that only a portion of the people that are influenced by the hotels reviews and online PR effords will actually admit as much online. Just because not everyone enjoys to write reviews, me for example, i was at that hotel after i saw some the positive reviews and exchange of posts between the hotel and the guests (past) on tripadvisor, my thought was, if the hotel keeps this efforts online it must have a great client oriented staff. Nowadays, even if i didnt post a review of the hotel, i advise all my friends to go there, so does my GF, that is a travel advisor at a big Travel Agency.

    Quote Originally Posted by TheGAME1264, post: 246035
    ...
    You gave a great example of a business that dont get much form Facebook, i gave you a great example of a business that lives of facebook.

    One thing we can certainly agree, different projects have different needs and answers to their problems.
    Facebook may work great for some while being useless for others, it depends.

    Yes, facebook is not Business to Client oriented, linkdn is more of the sort, but i would risk to say that the cases of business getting something out of linkdn are less that the ones that profit out of facebook.

    That being said, how many business have websites that dont bring any revenue at all? ALLOT. I would risk that the bigger chunk of business websites dont generate revenue to the business, at least on a way that be measured. (unless you ask every client if they have been on the site, have they found it useful, did the site influenced their decision, etc.. and expect everyone to be honest about their answers)
    But one thing is certain, a website have become mandatory. Do we agree?

    Heres an example, i know a company that even with a great product, that sells quite well on the resale network, their online shop dont bring enough sales to pay for the hosting. And yes they have a website plus other social network profiles, in their case they have the profile for a "just in case".

    Its not my intent to say that social profiles should or will ever be "the client support venue", actually i believe that the social profiles success depend allot from the way the company behaves with the clients out of those social networks arena.

    I would also like to stress out, again, that each project takes advantage of diferent solutions, theres not a "truth set in stone", each case is a case.
    I would not be so fast to say "social networks sucks" from a business point of view just like i wont ever say that social networks are the ultimate answer for a business in stress.

    If the question is, "Do most of the businesses profit directly from their social presence" my answer would be, "no".
    If the question is, "Do most of the business profit directly or indirectly from their internet presence. Website, Social profiles" My answer would be, "most businesses can have a positive return depending on how their project was developed and how it is managed."
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  8. #17
    Unpaid WDF Intern TheGAME1264's Avatar
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    I'll definitely agree with you that there are a lot of businesses that don't generate revenue from their websites. I've picked up clients for that reason alone. I'll also agree that Facebook might work in certain circumstances, although I won't agree that it should be a primary online revenue driver. If it is, some other aspect of online marketing is failing, and I would suggest that it's usually the website that is to blame.

    However, you said that a Facebook presence is "mandatory". That means everyone should have one. If a Facebook presence is useless for some businesses, why should a Facebook presence be a requirement for those businesses? It's not doing them any good.

    This also just came out yesterday, and while it probably won't lead to mass exodus from Facebook by itself, it's contributing to the establishment of a pattern of events that will eventually lead to said exodus if Facebook doesn't smarten up (and all signs lead to "they won't"):

    http://www.plagiarismtoday.com/2013/...ivacy-problem/

    Like I said, Facebook is at the tail end of its peak period and a decline is definitely on the horizon, unless something very, very drastic happens.
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  9. #18
    Member paulo f's Avatar
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    When i say that facebook is mandatory i dont mean that its mandatory because it will generate revenue, i say it is mandatory because if a client tried to search for that business and dont find it, the business will loose a bit of rep.
    That doesnt mean that the client will be oh so glad that it found the facebook profile or fan page, it only mean that the client will be dissapointed, even if it shouldnt.

    About the article.
    (wish i read only to a certain extent)

    People dont trust facebook, so what? people dont trust Google either for the same reason, although i dont know who is pushing the boundaries further. Is Google loosing visits?, well... no.
    Facebook wont die because of privacy reasons on a world where people accept that using gmail allows google to snoop their emails.
    For years now that Google is saying they collect info to better serve the client, facebook can and will if not already claim the same.

    Facebook will fall when another social network beats them... Google tried and failed, Microsoft tried and failed... and common... Google even tied up the search results with G+ profile and Facebook is still beating G+.

    At first people were like, how can this great companies give us so much for free? i dont know but ill take the offer!.
    Nowadays people already know the price, and most accept it without giving it a second thought.

    If people really cared about privacy they would already stopped using google wich by the way not only snoops everything you for their own advantage but also sells what they know about you to partner.
    Governments can requests info form google that allegadly gives it for free. Google even reported wich countris made more requests last year.
    How can someone worries about Facebook privacy issues when dont minding that google sells to others everything you do online.

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  10. #19
    Unpaid WDF Intern TheGAME1264's Avatar
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    What rep? What are they losing? The majority of people will not buy from a company just because they have a Facebook page, and the majority of people will not look at a Facebook page and make a buying decision based on it...that would be stupid. Even if a company has a facebook page and they use it "well", people don't buy from it. Therefore, not mandatory. I don't know who the "client" is that you're talking about, but I would suggest to you that it's not the vast majority of people.

    Google does have "trust issues", if you want to call them that, as well, but that's irrelevant. The trust issues that exist primarily come from their non-core products (e.g. GMail) and, unlike Facebook, Google offers quick and easy ways to opt out of just about anything they offer besides "don't use it". Let's see Facebook offer a way to privatize everything on it and offer a data liberation option, and then we can talk about who has deeper issues with trust.

    The other reason Google isn't going anywhere, since you brought it up, is because they've diversified their business model extremely well, are represented externally by a group of employees who carry themselves very well and actually care about what they're doing, and help people who want to help themselves. If you ever get the chance, attend one of their conferences or at least do a Hangout (I've done both, and I'm doing one of their first all-day conferences in about five weeks' time). Talk to the Google reps. Talk to a Doubleclick rep if you get the chance. Get one of their swag bags. They need to work on their T-shirt sizing (I'm normally a large because of my chest and arms, and their XL looks like a muscle t-shirt on me), but overall they get it. They're actually doing everything the social media clowns say you're supposed to do on your Facebook page, but they're doing it out in the real world with their own stuff.

    That's the biggest reason G+ is not doing as well...they don't care as much about it because they don't have to. If it flops, they lose a potential revenue source coupled with a big pile of "inh, so what?" Facebook...different story.
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  11. #20
    Senior Member Webzarus's Avatar
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    A rep ? That makes no sense... No one searches Facebook for business or services... I'm sure there ARE people, that if they are an AVID Facebook user and they are searching or browsing the "web" and they are trying to determine if thy want to use a particular product or service, they MAY click on their Facebook icon and go to their page, but that's more in the context of looking for reviews on a product or service... Problem with that is... The Facebook page is gonna be "one sided" reviews and marketing.

    Your comments about google selling your information and giving it to govt agencies is 100% inaccurate and blatantly false. I've seen the same comments on several sites that excoriate google simply for being successful. Kinda like the "Scroogled" commercials that ran over the holidays... Yes, google changed their "shopping section" from free placements ( if you jumped through the right hoops ), to a paid inclusion into their shopping system, but that fact alone doesn't justify the claims that bing was making against them...

    And there is no way you can even begin to compare Facebook and google on privacy issues... Facebook started out as a "college" portal, the only qualification to get a Facebook account years ago was a .edu email address. Yes, they have changed and evolved, but for only 1 reason, not to provide better service to their clients, but just to get more potential clients... Period. Their privacy policy is a joke, and for those that care to share their lives... Oh, we'll, that's their choice...

    It WILL be a domino effect when it happens.. Just ask "yahoo", they were king at one time, but because they focused more on "more" instead of actually offering new, better services... That started losing advertisers, meaning they started laying off people, scaling back services, etc... They are now just a shell of what they once were...

    Did google cause their downfall ? Partly, but a bigger part was yahoo, was focused on exactly what FB is focused on... The bottom line.. When you forget your visitors, or treat them as "how can we get more from them", instead of "what can we provide them that they will use?", its just a matter of time... Roll in their crap privacy issues... And they actually are pushing people away.

    Now... Facebook does offer benefits to some small portion of their users... My daughter uses Facebook to market her stuff, and she does pretty well with it, but there's a line where your marketing efforts can actually affect you and your business negatively... So even direct marketing on Facebook will eventually end as those that get tired of reading your post leave Facebook completely, your market dries up.

    Far from mandatory.


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